But if we don't make her do maths...

Posted on the TCS List on Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:15:39 +0000

by David Deutsch

A reader asked:

After visiting the “Puzzling Parenting” stuff, I went to the TCS site and read Sarah's wonderful article about math(s). It got me wondering. I am imagining a kid, no – a family of three kids. The kids are, um, 10, 12 & 15. The parents have resisted the urge to push academics on them. They have not done any academic math(s). They play video games, chat on the internet, build lego stuff, build tree-houses, etc. Would somebody write for me a description of life from here on? Tell me a story, that includes the 15 year old becoming a scientist. I am just having trouble picturing them starting math so late... Would somebody help me with this idea?

And later:

The concern is genuine. Without knowledge, how do we come to be who it is we are “meant” to be? And is there not a point, developmentally, where it can be “too late”?

NO. I am sure it can't be “too late.”

What I really want is a way to picture life from here for, say, the oldest one (15, was it?). Does she begin with fractions and decimals

Maybe. Probably not.

and work her way up to algebra, then calculus?

Calculus is almost certain to follow, rather than precede, algebra, yes.

Does she start at the local community college

Quite possibly.

in remedial classes?

No, in normal classes.

What does such a life LOOK like?

Well OK, if you really insist on knowing, I'll tell you. I know all the details except her name, so let's call her Anna.

Sometime this year, Anna's previous interest in Lego, treehouse- building, the internet and computer games will all come together and draw her attention to a major TV documentary about how stunts are arranged in movies. She will start building such stunts in the garden, each more ingenious than the last, using all sorts of props and filming them on a video camera. One day, a physics teacher will walk past and see her doing this. Calling to her to give her advice about how to balance a particular arrangement of planks, he will inadvertently cause her to fall fifteen feet onto the grass, fortunately causing only a broken toe.

Anna will have to wait three hours for treatment in the emergency room, which could have been excruciating (because the slightly addled person waiting on her left suffering from chronic whiteboard-marker poisoning will be a mathematics teacher eager to plug the gaps in her home education), but in the event, it will pass quickly because she will get into conversation with the fascinating person waiting on her right, a huge lady called Agnes. Turns out Agnes' ex-husband used to do stunts in Hollywood and she used to help him before she found out about some of the other stunts he pulled–but that's another story. Anyway, now she owns three successful cafes in town and has just bought two more and wants to go up-market. She's been talking to an advertising agency about making a series of ads for the local TV. She hasn't liked any of their ideas so far, but soon finds that Anna is bubbling with great ideas for how to advertise high-class restaurants using movie-like stunts. Agnes will be surprised and delighted to hear that Anna actually has videos of several stunts she has arranged single-handed (with a little help from her little brothers) and will tell her her to drop by at her office next say.

Next day Anna will hobble along to Agnes' office above one of her restaurants, currently being re-fitted with the new up-market decor. Agnes will love the videos, and will commission Anna to design five stunts for the new series of ads, and execute them for the TV people. Anna will earn three thousand dollars for this, but think no more about it until six months later when the advertising agency will offer her a similar job, albeit for only $500. She will accept, because even though it's a lot of work and the materials alone will cost almost that much, she will enjoy it enormously. The following week, someone will let the agency down and they will phone around in desperation for anyone they know who can do a firework display. Anna will never have done such a thing, and technically it's illegal, but she will agree to step in to help them out. Not only will the display be a great success, but Anna will meet and fall instantly in love with ... the computerised timing device that the agency gave her to time the fireworks. She will ask if she can borrow it, and for the next year it will spend far more time in her garage than at the agency, for she will think of more and more ways to use it to do wonderful stunts, and also special effects. She will also start editing her movies on the agency's professional computerised editing system.

One day in the cutting room, she will meet a pro who is engaged in a science documentary. He will be a mathematics graduate–who has forgotten all the maths he ever knew and will now be spending all his time filming animals mating. So they won't talk about maths but she will show him how to hide some of the more repulsive aspects of his footage using a difficult timed transition on the editing machine, and in return he will introduce her to his boss, whose next documentary will be about the NASA robots that will one day explore Mars. Anna will be hired as a technical assistant on that documentary, and will dazzle everyone with the exciting stunts she will think of to demonstrate how these robots will behave on Mars. The boss will offer her a permanent job on the team, but she will refuse, because while at NASA, she will also have helped one of the astronomers out with making a promotional movie designed to persuade the government to fund more infra-red satellites. The problem will have been how to display, in an eye-catching and persuasive way, the complex data that demonstrate why such satellites are better than ground-based telescopes. Anna will succeed at this so well that she will have persuaded herself too. She will spend the next two years working for one of NASA'a subcontractors, first in the publicity department, then designing user-interfaces for satellite ground stations, and then even some aspects of the satellites themselves.

All this will involve a lot of interactions between herself and astrophysics graduate students, but slowly the attraction of satellites will wear off, and she will realise that her real love is theoretical astronomy. She'll read a book about calculus, do a six- month adult-education course in physics to fill in the gaps in what she's picked up, and then apply to take an undergraduate degree in astronomy, complete it a year ahead of time and then be accepted for a PhD in quasar structure. At that point she will officially become a SCIENTIST.

Meanwhile she will have had two children with the NASA astronomer (who will have left astronomy to become an internet millionaire and failed miserably, but will by that time be blissfully happy again as a home maker), and she will worry that the children won't achieve anything in life unless they have a good grounding in the basics, especially mathematics, but for some unaccountable reason the ungrateful little wretches will be digging their heels in and refusing to listen.

Is this anedocte even real?

Is this anedocte even real?

I really needed to read something like this!

Thank you so much for writing this article. I am a high school student who has always hated math, I have much more avidly pursued interests in art and creative writing. My parents(who are in no way whatsoever TCS parents) do not approve of these interests and have always pressured me to pursue math and science(just like my older sister) because they believe that a person cannot make it in life only with skills in writing, art, and foreign languages(I am in a Spanish class and independently study Japanese). It's very nice to see that there are other people out there who acknowledge the fact that there is a great variety of useful skills, not just what parents and teachers think we will "need", but which we forget shortly after graduating. It was very nice to finally read something on this subject. Keep up the great work! I look forward to more great articles!

ridiculous

As a physics graduate who did a thesis in the field of astrophysics I think I'm qualified to call this _story_ ridiculous. (And thats not because the physics guy was responsible for the toe breaking.) If you want to do serious science, you've got to work hard and work young. Otherwise, someone else will get the funding -- particularly for theoretical (ie: government funded) topics like galactic dynamics. (Sorry, quasar structure isn't actually a field.)

The real problem with children and math isn't "educational coercion". It is that parents are afraid of confronting their own fears of math. They need to know the same thing that kids need to know: it is ok not to be right; it is ok to experiment; it is ok to be frustrated that there is 1 correct answer. It is not ok to imply to your children that math is scary, or hard, or not important because you have issues with it.

It is also not ok to let your children say "this is too hard" and have that be the end of it because you think it's "too hard".

Math _is_ hard sometimes, but so is using language. Would it be ok if your child said "NO TALK" and refused to use sentences? Yet a claim of "long division is hard" garners far more sympathy. Why is that?

some kids like math... and some don't, which is fine too

I'd say the story is not impossible, but very unlikely. Most probably, these kids will not become scientists. Not because they haven't had math pushed on them, but because they haven't taken it up by themselves. I loved math and biology as a kid and read textbooks in my free time (sadly normal schooling made me dislike textbooks, so I don't do this very much any longer, despite planning on applying to grad school this year). Some "unschooled" kids will like various academic subjects, and may take up jobs related to these subjects. Some won't like traditional academics, which is just fine, because most jobs have very little to do with traditional academics anyway...

This is just silly.

From what I can tell, the author of this article is indicating that we don't need to teach our children any valuable skills because they will all, by pure luck, run into people that will hire them to do that which interests them for large sums of money.

In the 28 odd (some more odd than others) years of my existence, no one has ever come up to me and offered to pay me for sitting around diddling with musical instruments and recording gear, or for playing video games, or napping, or drinking beer. On the other hand, a high school diploma and college degree, which I wouldn't have gotten if my parents hadn't made me go to public school and paid for my college studies, have gotten me a nice job at a computer company that pays the bills and affords me a cushy lifestyle.

In my opinion, convincing impressionable parents that their children will turn out to be scientists and engineers, etc., without any actual scientific study, is nearly criminal.

Insane academics

Math is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen. Nobody on earth uses it other than math teachers. By the way, science shouldn't be enforced as much as it is either. Most science is either totally pointless or completely immoral anyway. Also, physical education (aka forced weight loss program) has got to go. Students would benefit so much more from art, drama, and music classes. Careers in these areas make huge money and don't go against anyone's morals, the way science does.

RE: Wolfgirl

"Careers in these areas make huge money and don't go against anyone's morals, the way science does."
First, the huge money thing. I'm working with a simple IT certification, full-time, and making nearly identical to a friend of mine that's 'acting' for a museum. The actual sum of his actual acting gigs, so far, has been something in the range of $200 for well over 2 years of hard work, sweat, tears, and (fake) blood. I believe he quoted to me that the average actor makes $17k a year. There is no money in art, unless you miraculously strike it rich with talent; as opposed to engineering, which has less of a range in pay, but has an average and minimum far above that of acting and musicianship.

Second, since when was art -not- about offending people? That's the core of the concept. Nobody that feels passionate about any art form goes into it intending to uphold the status quo. The greatest artists of nearly every era offend people's morals simply as a cause of their own passion and desire to create something that instills a sense of awe and wonder.

I think, personally, that the TCS answer to mathematics is to find a proper compromise. Figure out what your child's interest truly is and relate it back to the sub-set of math they're currently enrolled in. For example, an artist having difficulty with geometry could be shown its applications to perspective, a musician in algebra could sit and listen to a sound clip generated through a polynomial equation, and an actor in calculus could be shown the stunt possibilities opened up through a greater mathematical grasp of physics.

Its not always about the numbers

While the points that you all raise are valid (some are clearly more passionate about math than others) it is important for parents to realise - when a child is brought up within a certain religion, sent to a religiously affiliated school and takes part in various religiously affiliated community projects, there is a high likelihood that they will CHOOSE to continue observing that religion into adulthood (not a guarentee of course). Children that have sporting parents are often exposed to the sports themselves and often choose to pursue sporting interests. Children that have parents that are creative, "Bohemian", will often display thse behaviours. The point I am making is that in order to get a child to like math, science, technology is to create an environment which allows the child to interact, explore and most importantly have a positive experience - in the end, they will make their own choices but a large percentage will be more open to these fields. I teach 3500 students a week and have taught over 15000 over the past 10 years. I can honestly say that making math fun is easy for me as there are so many wonderful ways to expose a young mind to this fascinating field - but its not always about the numbers - maths teaches you how to structure a solution, it teaches you to think outside of the box, it teaches you about life (some problems have no solutions, some have one and and some hae many) but by far the most interesting part of math is its application in real life - math and solving crimes, math and magic, brainteasers, math and space, math and business, math and genetics, HIV AIDS, sport, etc the list is infinite...I always teach my students that it is not about the numbers... it is about knowledge - the more you know, the more tools you have to play a meaningful role in society. To parents, please don't EVER say to your children that you were lousy at math (even if you did not do well at school), this allows them to justify their poor performance. Take them to the local sciencentres, encourage hobbies like Rocket launching, Lego building, mechano, playing chess, sci-fi books, watching lunar eclipses, going on full moon hikes, working out the cost of a full shopping trolley before checkout, play registration number games while driving, visit the aquariums, play card games, buy the activity books for the kids to work through on their own,etc Instill a love for knowledge and praise your child at all times - give them the self confidence to succeed. There will be times we do badly on a math test - this is not an indication of ability, it is merely a reflection of their performance for 1 test! Parents must not feel intimidated to help their children with math homework ("because it's not the same math we did in our day") as the math does make sense if you sit down and read it with an open mind - you would be able to relate the content to so many things that you do each day! Gie yourself a little credit too! Above all, seek to gain as much knowledge as you can on every topic and this thirst for knowledge will propel your child to choose their own path but at least they will do it with enthusiasm and with a fair amount of exposure to math, science and technology in their youth, they will excell in their future fields. Please feel free to email me if you need any suggestions on how to get your child to fall in love with math again - there is no greater joy then helping someone back onto the path of eduventure!

I Enjoyed the Story

I enjoyed the story. It could just as easily be true as not.

DD was responding to someone who wanted to hear predictions of the future for the oldest of these three children. I think it's really impossible to predict the future for ANYone --

College graduates don't necessarily end up working in their fields of study: there's no one thing that guarantees success and no one thing that guarantees failure (except that you're more likely to succeed when you love what you're doing, more likely to fail when you don't give a shit) --

So maybe DD was, at least partially, responding to the ridiculousness of the request to "picture life from here" for Anna, who has never been forced to study math.

Just because she was never forced to crack open a math-book, it's silly for anyone to think she's never been exposed to math.

I personally find it impossible to learn cooking or sewing or shopping or building or drawing -- or anything of interest to anyone -- without some interaction with math (even writers sometimes have to edit their work to fit into a certain word-count).

So children who love life (which is the normal state of children when free to do what they love) WILL be choosing to learn some math, however much and in whatever form they need, to do whatever they want to do.

Susan

Post new comment



The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly.




  • Allowed HTML tags: <p> <blockquote> <a> <b> <strong> <i> <em> <u> <ol> <ul> <li> <img> <strike> <cite> <sub> <sup> <n> <c> <aa>
  • Leave a blank line between paragraphs.
  • To insert node information:<n node>
  • Email addresses will be encoded to protect them.
  • '@' characters will be replaced with images to impede spammers.
Verify comment authorship

What do you get when you divide eight by two?

Please answer the question above. Use digits, not words.