Taking Children Seriously

As a parent who has done her best to raise her children the TCS way there is one reoccuring issue that I find the most hard to deal with. Something that I never considered when taking on this philosophy all those years ago. I have a fairly good understanding of TCS, and I agree with the principles... yet I have parenting issues and problems as every parent does... the difference? I have no one who understands the things I struggle with, and the solutions they give are very much un-TCS.

A TCS parent cannot sit amongst a group of mums and talk about how it can be frustrating that your children stay up till 2 - 3am because they are too interested in their computer games... how this messes up the whole day for the mother as the children then sleep till midday and beyond, but are still too young to be left alone. She cant talk about how sometimes she is just sick and tired of talking and reasoning and wants to just be able to say "do it because I say so, and if you dont I will cut your pocket money this week". Her family and friends dont understand, often the attitude comes back "its your bed, now lie in it". A depressed TCS mother cannot seek help for fear of her parenting technique be bought to question.

So if you are thinking of TCS for your children... I would support your decision, I think its the only way to raise your children. Be prepared to have little or no support tho, understand that often the people around you will not only not understand, but may actually revel in your difficulties because it justifies their own disciplinarian methods. Understand that the usual lines of help if you get into serious problems with your own health are closed to you. Do I think its worth it? this isn't really a question for me, I dont think I can be any other way towards my children than I am now, TCS is how I feel about childrearing... but sometimes... I just wish I could call up a friend or go online and find someone right there to hear me cry and rant...

Sorry to ask a question that's probably been asked a hundred times before, but I'm new here.

Suppose a parent comes to the realization they've been parenting all wrong (coercively) and that their very strong, self-assertive child is not responding well to that at all (battle of wills). So the parent reads, thinks, and decides to change.

Bedtime rolls around. Or what would be bedtime. But now the parent has NO idea what to do. Usually she gets the child in bed with a mix of "tactics" and now she doesn't trust any of them. But the child is used to rebelling. So, he stays up. The parent tries to talk to him and reason with him, but his eyes are glued to the TV and he just mutters, "I'm staying up" and completely stops responding after that.

What could the mom do- she doesn't want to be just permissive, but the child gives her no opening to discuss it or come up with some mutually acceptable solution. People seem to say, well a child raised with TCS will reason and discuss with you. But what about a child who hasn't, to this point, been raised that way?

Taking Children Seriously is a radical break from our (the modern world's) "traditional" way of viewing the world and people (children in particular). By "tradition" I mean maybe the last several hundred years of human history.

Yet from what I've learned of the few primitive people-groups still living in the world today (I'm thinking mainly of the !Kung of Africa and the Yequana of South America), these people live consensually and never, or rarely, coerce others in the tribe irregardless of age.

I'm not saying I'd want to do away with progress. I love to read, philosophize, debate, partake in coffee and chocolate, and do many things I probably wouldn't be doing if I were a Stone-Age Indian living in a totally harmonious, cohesive, and natural community.

(Of course, there'd be many compensations such as having attachment parenting be the norm -- but I must admit there's this piece of me that loves diverging from the norm, even in the way I parent.)

But could it be that progress has stimulated some individuals to keep seeking ever greater control over the world, and over other people, in order to increase their individual power and ability to make things go the way they want them to?

Could it be that our current heirarchical traditions are really a by-product of progress?

In that case, TCS is both new and ancient at the same time! I love the idea of getting to have my cake and eat it too! For instance, some other non-coercive folks I've dialogued with online seem to strongly disapprove of people like me who still buy foods and other products from "mainstream" suppliers.

From what I've been reading here, it sounds like we're welcome to come to TCS as we are and reach our own conclusions about outside issues. I hope to hear others' ideas about these things.

One of the main tenets of TCS is giving people freedom to do what they like when they like; I realize that TSC is a complex philosophy, so forgive my clumsiness if that's an oversimplification.

I grew up in a permissive environment. If I wanted to eat mashed potatoes for breakfast, or wear my elf costume to school, my parents let me. If I signed up for ballet or ice skating or horseback riding, and then grew bored, or had a conflict with my instructor, I quit. If I didn't want to do my homework or clean my room I didn't. In high school I missed 16 days one quarter, because I didn't feel like going. I didn't have a curfew, or restrictions about movies, sex or parties. I'm sure you get the idea, I want to keep this short.

But today, as an adult I'm pretty irresponsible. I have a very difficult time initiating action, and I give up quickly. Even things I want to do, like keep the house clean, or eat healthy foods, I don't do consistently, even though I feel much happier when I do them. I live for the moment, and can't be bothered to work for a goal, or delay gratification. A hypothetical example: even though I want the garbage men to take my trash away, if I don't feel like setting it out by the curb, I don't. Then later I feel sad and frustrated that I didn't do it, and my quality of life and happiness suffer.

Just wondering what your thoughts are.

A few important articles to get you started.

OMG im a tipical 13 yo gurl frm a tipical small skool and im BORED!! im always tired b/c they pound crap into our heads w/ hammers and nails then glue us back together! if they would do more visual things, i would learn more and we would have more fun! skool shuld b fun...were kids!! theres only 1 time u get to b a kid and there wasting it on crappin skool!!

i play sports ok? i wake up @ 630...go to skool till 4....@ 430 i have bball practice or cheerleading practice or track practice or cross country training or games or tennis practice or other crap like that! sumtimes i dont get home till almost midnight frm crap and then on top of that i still have all the boring crappin hw that all the teachers pile on till were drownin in it and crap so then im up till like 1 or 2!!then sumtimes on test nites i have to pull allnighters!! and im pretty smart, and crap but not a nerd.... but im always tired frm staying up so late!!! then every other day i have quizes and pop tests and vocabulary in 2 classes and then i have history and all the other crap everyone else has cept im glad this year i dont have to take frickin spanish!!!!

gah teachers should give us less hw or just fun hw!! i heard of a teacher one time that gave VIEDEO GAMES 4 hw!! i wish more teachers were like that!!!!! im getting a headache frm all this crap.

Why you should think twice before praising a particular LEA (local education authority).

More discussion with a radical unschooler on the subject of education and coercion.

Parents often fear that a child might make the wrong decisions about what to learn.

A charming story for everyone who has a bed-making issue.

Misunderstandings and miscommunication are common occurrences, so it is wise not to jump to negative conclusions.

This piece by Elliot may help some understand TCS ideas about coercion and solving problems.

The implication of saying that there are things children must learn to study is that the children may not want to learn them, because they won't know that they are valuable until later. But if you can't enumerate them all, then how do you know, when you are forcing your children to do one of them, that you are not preventing your children from doing another? Also, if you can't enumerate them all, how do you think the children are going to learn the ones you are unable to enumerate? In fact, I believe that not only can you not enumerate them all, but you can't KNOW them all, that you can't even know a millionth part of them.

The criticism sometimes levelled at TCS parents, that they must be doormats, is in terms of education actually more appropriate when applied to conventional parents.

"Harmful to children", where did this phrase come from?
Odds are it was originated by an adult (18 and over).
Child censorship is an issue we shouldn't ignore.
No child above 12 years old should have restrictions about what he or she might get to see or hear.

Let's say a child of 13 wants to play a mature video game containing gory violence, nudity, and sexually stimulating situations (although no real sex is involved).
Instead of taking away any chance the child might have of seeing it, sit down with your child in a "one on one" and calmly discuss it as if you were in a college debate.

Really consider these points instead of just disregarding them, and enforcing your own law.
Become a "cool" parent in your kid's eyes by treating him or her as an equal, and your bond can only get stronger.

I'd like to stress, I am not a parent, nor am I a professional in child psychiatry.
I just remember how I felt growing up, not that my parents didn't do a good job of raising me.
I just think the "old school" way of thinking, is really not good enough.

I'm sure it was written here before, but I think it bares repeating:
For more information, visit esrb.org (contents must not be copied and links within site must not be posted).

My mother and I don't seem to know how to team up and help each other with our problems, and I find that very much a problem. I just basically want to know how we can be two pieces of the same puzzle, her understanding my situation in life and changing for me, and me being able to help her with her obstacles, and myself growing as a person. Hi. I'm seventeen, currently attending high-school. I have a few questions, and I was wondering if TCS could spare some advice.

(Just some backround) I tend to be a very negative person, and I often feel a lot of jealous and posessive feelings toward my girlfriend. I tend to be happy in social situations, but when it's just me, my mind wanders a lot. These past couple years I've had a hard time falling asleep at the right time, and I tend to feel as if doing anything physical that is a chore or task just plain arduous. I don't have any motivation really to do any of the things I wish to do, or have to do.
My mother is a good woman, but she suffers from the same lack of motivation and optimism that I do. She's an alcholic that tends to fall off the wagon a lot, and it's hard to deal with her when she's drunk. Especially because she can become violent, and the situations she puts herself in and also puts me in can escalate, never to extreme conditions, and I don't hit my mother. The situation seems to be looked at as my fault, and my mother just constantly rants to people, saying that I abuse her when she's drunk, but doesn't even remember the events that happened (she blacks out a lot).
I'm seventeen; I've made a lot of mistakes in my life, and I know my mom has as well. But I cannot help her with her addictions, and I myself have started smoking again. My mother and I don't seem to know how to team up and help each other with our problems, and I find that very much a problem.

My 2.5yr old sometimes hits, pushes and throws - what ought I to do about it?My 2.5yr hold is normally a very pleasant toddler, very peaceful and calm and non-confrontational. But occassionally she throws things, and sometimes they're heavy things that could do some damage, for no particular reason as well as when she's angry. If we ask her not to do something (and we don't often do so!), she sometimes hits us. When she's going through a bad patch this happens more and more often and quite often includes pushing her baby sister over, or hitting her. She's not a hard work toddler, and I expect the occassional meltdown when life doesn't make sense, and respect her needs as much as I possibly can (she's still breastfed, sleeps in our bed, isn't forced to do anything she doesn't want to do) but I'm finding this unpleasant behaviour very hard to deal with - in fact I haven't a clue how to deal with it! My instant reaction is to snap, or say 'no' very firmly (although ideally we try not to say 'no' to her!) - it makes me very angry to see her hit/throw/push - but I'm very aware that it's probably not the best course of action. I'd very, very much appreciate some guidance or suggestions or anything!

Many thanks

Clare

My 2.5yr old sometimes hits, pushes and throws - what ought I to do about it?My 2.5yr hold is normally a very pleasant toddler, very peaceful and calm and non-confrontational. But occassionally she throws things, and sometimes they're heavy things that could do some damage, for no particular reason as well as when she's angry. If we ask her not to do something (and we don't often do so!), she sometimes hits us. When she's going through a bad patch this happens more and more often and quite often includes pushing her baby sister over, or hitting her. She's not a hard work toddler, and I expect the occassional meltdown when life doesn't make sense, and respect her needs as much as I possibly can (she's still breastfed, sleeps in our bed, isn't forced to do anything she doesn't want to do) but I'm finding this unpleasant behaviour very hard to deal with - in fact I haven't a clue how to deal with it! My instant reaction is to snap, or say 'no' very firmly (although ideally we try not to say 'no' to her!) - it makes me very angry to see her hit/throw/push - but I'm very aware that it's probably not the best course of action. I'd very, very much appreciate some guidance or suggestions or anything!

Many thanks

Clare

My 2.5yr old sometimes hits, pushes and throws - what ought I to do about it?My 2.5yr hold is normally a very pleasant toddler, very peaceful and calm and non-confrontational. But occassionally she throws things, and sometimes they're heavy things that could do some damage, for no particular reason as well as when she's angry. If we ask her not to do something (and we don't often do so!), she sometimes hits us. When she's going through a bad patch this happens more and more often and quite often includes pushing her baby sister over, or hitting her. She's not a hard work toddler, and I expect the occassional meltdown when life doesn't make sense, and respect her needs as much as I possibly can (she's still breastfed, sleeps in our bed, isn't forced to do anything she doesn't want to do) but I'm finding this unpleasant behaviour very hard to deal with - in fact I haven't a clue how to deal with it! My instant reaction is to snap, or say 'no' very firmly (although ideally we try not to say 'no' to her!) - it makes me very angry to see her hit/throw/push - but I'm very aware that it's probably not the best course of action. I'd very, very much appreciate some guidance or suggestions or anything!

Many thanks

Clare

What Karl Popper has to say that is relevant to education.

What should I have done, after observing what looked like a scary kind of parenting?I don't have a lot to say about this; I'm just a dabbler in the site at the moment, being a little too old for a child's perspective and a little too, err, childless for a parent's.

However, I'm curious what anyone else might make of this:

I'll skip the details of the circumstance, except to note that it was at the house of an acquaintance (not so well-known as to be a friend). A relation of that acquaintance was there with her children--one girl of about two or three, the other less than a year. More than once I heard the mother correct her kids simply by bellowing, "NO!" It sounded like a snarling dog, and at the same time, like the sort of short commands which are used to get through to dogs. One could hear her from another floor of the house.

We're not even necessarily talking about her reprimanding the children for doing something wrong. The only specific case I recall is when one of them wandered rather near the top of a staircase. It was definitely a command, though, not a word of warning or a cry of alarm.

This was not a person with whom I would feel comfortable having a general discussion on parenting, much less criticising her (even politely). That's partly because I barely know her, and partly because I'm nineteen years old (eighteen then) and don't expect to be treated as if I know the first thing about raising kids. (Which, I suppose, I don't, except in that I was one fairly recently.)

Was there any way to voice my horror raise my concern without creating an uncomfortable situation all around?

How to help a child to try school safely.

To ensure that your child loves visiting the dentist, read this!

Are schools inherently coercive, or is that just a property of all (or nearly all?) existing schools, and come the revolution, could there be TCS schools?

My two boys are 5 and 6. They, have been having behavior problems at their summer day care center. The six year old in particular has been acting in an inappropriate manner. These problems are escalating. At first he either refused to follow or ignored directions (such as getting out of the pool, etc.) I understand that this is relatively normal, but despite our best efforts his behavior has not improved In fact, it has worsened. He began running away from the group and pulling temper tantrums. We were concerned of course and were working hard to help him understand that one of the natural consequences of misbehaving is that you don't have as much fun.
Then he started hitting people. First he got into a fist fight with another child. Another time he tried to knock someone down. The last straw came when he was put in time out (again). He refused, and then HIT AND KICKED THE COUNCILOR. They had to send him home. I told him that he was grounded from TV for two days. He threw a fit.
That's not the major problem.
After I calmed down I sat down to talk to him. The conversation went like this:

Me: "Devon, why did you kick the councilor?"
Him: (reluctantly) "I dunno, I just did".
Me: We don't hit other people. Do you know why?"
Him: "nooo"
Me: "please try and think of a reason OK?"
Him:"Ummm because it's bad"
Me: But what makes it bad?
Him: Because I'm not supposed to.
Me: What does it feel like when someone kicks you?
Him: I don't like it
Me: Why not?
Him: because it hurts
Me: So how do you think other people feel when you kick them?
Him: *shrug*
Me: Do you think that they like it?
Him: *shakes head*
Me: Right. They don't like it. It hurts to get kicked, right?
Him: *nods*
Me: So we don't kick people OK?
Him: *nods reluctantly*
Me: Why do we not kick people?
Him: Ummm...because I'm not supposed to.
I wanted to tear my hair out.

Later I tried a different approach. I asked him to describe his normal day. Not only did I want to get a clearer picture of what had lead up to the incident I honestly wanted to know how he spent his day.

Despite having been influenced by our very own David Deutsch, John Holt was not as close to TCS as we might have hoped.

Mary Ann points out that if a friend knocked over a cup, we would help clean it up, so why not do so for our children too?

How close is the thing we TCS folk call “coercion” to “coercion” in everyday usage?

Sue Cvach has some advice for parents whose young children seem to be lashing out against their siblings.

Do not assume that a child is acting irrationally just because he or she wants to go to school.